Curse

icemonkey · Apr 01, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

so all this about a new condition for a hammer attack, preferably one that makes sense, and nobody mentions dazed? The 'long lost cousin' of the conditions world, one that rarely showed up in prophecies, but is going to become commonplace in factions, seems to me the perfect time to add a hammer attack taht causes dazed. I don't think it would be overpowered like cripple could be, and it would lend some unique offerings to hammer. maybe if cannot knock target down they become dazed? And besides all that, dazed is a reasonable result of getting whomped in the face with an enourmous hammer.

LightningHell · Apr 01, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Why not.

Skullcrack {E}
7 Adrenaline
You lose all adrenaline. If Skullcrack hits, target is struck for 7...24 more damage and is Dazed for 3...11 seconds.

Something like that...although I wouldn't know if it was over/under/whateverpowered.

Rey Lentless · Apr 01, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

You can't take out weakness and stick in.. dazed. That would be ridiculously overpowered.

Quote:

Axe warriors dont pressure as well as hammer warriors

Yes.. they do, and that's the fricken point I've made several times. Hammers have a 10% greater dps when just swinging. Once you add skills or buffs, there's no longer a 10% difference. If we're agreed that axes and swords spike better, then shouldn't hammers have better dps?

Greedy Gus · Apr 01, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Relatively they have the same DPS while auto-attacking. Axes spike best but leave room for the least utility. Swords spike well without an elite (more room for utility), but have a slightly harder time getting deep wound on. Hammers spike slightly worse than axes and swords, but make up for it with knockdowns and doing longer "chains" that are extremely powerful. Yes, the balance is oh-so-screwed-up.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 01, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

And compaing a hammer warrior to an axe warrior? They are completely different things that do completely different jobs, which is the point I was making and is the point that is totally lost in this thread.

Yes I have read the thread, but I dont understand it. Hammer warriors dont spike as well as axe warriors. So what? Axe warriors dont pressure as well as hammer warriors, should we tweak their skills also so that they can? lets make the game so that we can all run six hammer warriors, two monks and nothing else, becasue if you increase their DPS beyond its already pretty extreme level thats what will happen.

Two completely different jobs? Ummm no. Warriors are there for both pressure AND spike. The weapon of choice may be different but to say they're completely different jobs?

And you obviously didnt read the thread through. Axes DO pressure just as well as hammers. And they shouldnt. Why should axe skills be tweaked at all to match hammers? That's what the problem here is. And youve obviously missed the point.

And yet again you come up with another ridiculous analogy. Hammers are supposed to be a bit better than axes and swords because you give up some defense for more offense but that isnt the case when axes are just as devastating in damage. How is that balanced?

DieInBasra · Apr 01, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Two completely different jobs? Ummm no. Warriors are there for both pressure AND spike. The weapon of choice may be different but to say they're completely different jobs?

And you obviously didnt read the thread through. Axes DO pressure just as well as hammers. And they shouldnt. Why should axe skills be tweaked at all to match hammers? That's what the problem here is. And youve obviously missed the point.

And yet again you come up with another ridiculous analogy. Hammers are supposed to be a bit better than axes and swords because you give up some defense for more offense but that isnt the case when axes are just as devastating in damage. How is that balanced?

Because a hammer can knock you on your ass for 5ish seconds? Because they can do 80+ damage, often nearer to 100, on command(Irresitable Blow)? The fact is that Hammers are still often used by top guilds, and they wouldn't be if the imbalance was as large as you're trying to make it seem.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 01, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Because a hammer can knock you on your ass for 5ish seconds? Because they can do 80+ damage, often nearer to 100, on command(Irresitable Blow)? The fact is that Hammers are still often used by top guilds, and they wouldn't be if the imbalance was as large as you're trying to make it seem.

And an axe doesnt need to knock you down when it can just kill you. I never said Hammers are crap or unusable. No one here is saying that, but look at the next chapter's upcoming skills for swords and axes and hammers. The hammer skills are...well...pretty subpar compared to the swords and axes. Then you'll see the gap widen even further.

Rey Lentless · Apr 01, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Ward of stability.. is the reason I make a case for higher dps now, as opposed to a year ago.

Hammers right now, are ok.. knockdowns are powerful. There was balanced stance and dolyak, and neither of those could be cast to help anyone else. Ward protects everything, even ghostlies.

That certainly won't make knockdowns worthless, but it will change the value on knockdowns, and that's the only thing hammers have going for them.

Seef II · Apr 01, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Ward of stability.. is the reason I make a case for higher dps now, as opposed to a year ago.

Hammers right now, are ok.. knockdowns are powerful. There was balanced stance and dolyak, and neither of those could be cast to help anyone else. Ward protects everything, even ghostlies.

That certainly won't make knockdowns worthless, but it will change the value on knockdowns, and that's the only thing hammers have going for them.

I guess this is why Anet put in the DPS skills for hammer, but after analyzing them, they're all subpar. Want DPS? Dragon Slash or Cleave. Want spike? Eviscerate, or conditionally, Final Thrust.

The deep wound that hammers can inflict is quite conditional. While a sword's Sever Artery is cheap at 4a and Gash can be saved up until a target's bleeding (via Hunter's Shot, traps, Sever itself, etc.) knockdown in general is less common, and if the target isn't knocked down, there is no deep wound. Simple as that. You can peel off the deep wound over the bleeding (which does a heck of a lot more than weakness on typical warrior targets) with swords, or stack a Cripple on top with axes, but with hammers, there's no viable cover condition. Hopefully your spike/KD chain kills, though.

Da Cebuano · Apr 01, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Hammers need to lose that lose all adrenaline BS, its pretty stupid, skills are already high costing to begin w/. I find it rather annoying how you give you your left arm shield for nothing. Knockdowns are awesome, yes, they stop anyone in their tracts, mainly when attacking casters. Problem is, axe has disrupt chop which IMHO >> knockdown. Sword has savage slash which isn't as good but the dmg is alright. Hammers have knockdowns which take forever to use cause of adren build up and you lose all of it once used. Not enough attack skills to work a build w/ so you always end up w/ the same as everyone else, then again same can be said for all weapons. However hammers get it the worse.

Some suggestions:

Definitely improve the skill sets
match the hammer attack speed w/ axe and sword
Hammer suffixes should be more than axe/sword suffixes, I mean you give up that 16 ar -2dmg stance +30hp or 45hp on stance or 60while hexed advantage for a weapon that does knockdowns.. -_- max hp mod for hammer should be 50 or something or a +10-15 defense mod.

^those sound overpowered, however, all they do is keep hammers on the same eye level as sword/axes. Also a lengthen knockdown hammer haft would be nice.

Taurus · Apr 02, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

When I set up a build and I have to set up a warr for a spike build, my choice is definitively a Hammer warr. I personally like the fact that crushing blow is a energy deep wound skill. Energy skills are good for spike builds, where you need to have right-on-point damage and you cant have that with adrenal skills ( Like gash or esviscerate for example ).

But the starter of this thread is right, a lot of the hammer skills are completely pointless, but still, that doesnt make hammers useless.

Minus Sign · Apr 02, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

In all, most warrior hammer builds have at least as good a DoT as any axe build, and more than a swordfighter with few exceptions. The problem is, when Anet was balancing skills and attack speeds in theri equations of balance, they missed two key points revolving around the inherent difference in the 3 weapons:

Axe and sword can equip shields. This increases 1)the number of buffs per weaponset that a warrior has access too and 2) it increases the armor that axe/sword warriors have.

Why is that bad? Because that gives axe/sword warriors a clear advantage in the overall numbers game. Not only can they do great DoT, they can recieve more damage to boot.

When Anet made these three weapons, I think 1 thing went through there minds: if hammers have an obvious damage advantage, then no one will ever grab a shield. This is incorrect however. We know how the game has evolved.

Swords: condition spammers
Axe: best spike
hammer: best DoT...right???

There needs to be a clear advantage to hammers as damage dealers. Not a massive difference, but one that is easily quantifiable. This would offset the armor nerf inherent to hammers, as well as the buffs to skills/adreniline/even more armor that mods give.

Solution: a very minor buff to hammer attack speed would see this set to rights. About halfway between where it is now and axe.

And I'm not too worried about the future of axe/sword if they do this. If someone comes at me with a pure DoT build, they're goanna be blind crippled and bleeding before me and my monk charge away.

EDIT: to Da Cebuano: Stonefist guantlets dude. Almost a requirment in a KD build. You'll find them in Droks and they're pretty cheap. Funny thing about them is they have a proviso. lengthen KD time by +1 second (maximum 3). Maybe you'll get your wish with factions.

Greedy Gus · Apr 02, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Classic PvE thinking to call sword warriors "condition spammers". Give me a break, outputting bleeding every now and then isn't the high point of the sword warrior's battle. It's about time I never heard that phrase again -_-

General Surena · Apr 02, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

so all this about a new condition for a hammer attack, preferably one that makes sense, and nobody mentions dazed? The 'long lost cousin' of the conditions world, one that rarely showed up in prophecies, but is going to become commonplace in factions, seems to me the perfect time to add a hammer attack taht causes dazed. I don't think it would be overpowered like cripple could be, and it would lend some unique offerings to hammer. maybe if cannot knock target down they become dazed? And besides all that, dazed is a reasonable result of getting whomped in the face with an enourmous hammer.

War Hammers in Medieval Times were actually used to inflict concussion. It just makes sense changing it from weakness to dazed.

Para · Apr 02, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I think Hammer Warriors are very good. Casters are cake for them. Most people don't realize the huge damage output of an hammer. Backbreaker is sure worth checking out.. Check the guild Evil and watch Bloodlight Eyes,
maybe that explains enouhg tho.

Patrograd · Apr 02, 2006, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And an axe doesnt need to knock you down when it can just kill you. I.

You use a hammer warrior to take a monk out of the equation during a spike. You use a hammer warrior to get right into the faces of enemy spike teams and unconditionally break the spike. You use a hammer warrior for his unconditional knockdowns and devastating skill combinations. Neither axe warriors nor sword warriors can do any of this without using skills that cause exhuastion and are thus very limited in their post patch application.

This is pressure. You cant think of pressure as being purely about damage done. You have to consider the sheer physical presence of a hammer warrior and his potential for causing total disruption and chaos - THIS is pressure. No other character in the game can cause this sort of pressure as effectively as a hammer warrior, barring perhaps a really skilled domination mesmer, but a domination mesmer cant hurt anyone inbetween skill usage, whereas a hammer warrior in between his disruption is also hurting people big style.

As has been said, plenty of top guilds use hammer warriors. instead of complaining about them, maybe get into observer mode and actually watch how they are supposed to be used. Maybe all these top guilds are packed with noobs who dont understand the game, but somehow I doubt that is the case.

QuixotesGhost · Apr 02, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Axe means deep wound, sword means bleeding, and those are what I would expect of a sword or axe hit. But if I were hit by a hammer, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I feel tired now," I'd be thinking, "My insides are smashed." I'd say remove the weakness factor and replace it with either bleeding(that is, internal bleeding) or crippled(hammers break bones

Weakness makes perfect sense to me. I interpet weakness with a hammer to be, "Oh crap, I just got the wind knocked outta me." Similar to when a boxer takes a good blow to the body.

Dazed makes a lot of sense too, but I'd wait and see just how much effect Broadhead Arrow and Temple Strike have on the game before throwing in dazed everywhere.

glountz · Apr 02, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

You use a hammer warrior to get right into the faces of enemy spike teams and unconditionally break the spike. You use a hammer warrior for his unconditional knockdowns and devastating skill combinations.

I'm sorry, but hammer knockdowns ARE conditionnal. Highly. Because you need AD. To use Backbreaker you need 10 AD. Easy to build with a sword, difficult with a hammer with its slow attack speed. That means when it's charged you'd better not miss it with an evade/blocking/interrupt or you'll be sorry. You will have to stack "to the limit" or other AD boost in your already overfull skillbar to make a good usage of this.
Hammer KD rely highly on conditions, weakness, adrenaline loose, etc... You can't spam it whenever you want.
By "unconditionnal" I think you mean that Irresistable, Bull's strike, Bull's charge, Griffon's sweep are "conditionnal" KD attacks. I made a Flourish sword build based on this, and I found myself KDing more than with my hammer build (as you can spam the correct attack right when you have to, not when your AD skill is filled), and having a shield.

My 2 cents.
I completely agree Hammer are less powerful than axe/sword, due to the lack of defense buff from the shield (+45hp, +16AL, -2 Damage reduction). You feel really highly this lack of defense when playing a hammer warrior in PVE.
But in PvP, I must say that as you are not the primary target, it doesn't matter. That's why you'll see many high PvP guilds use hammer guys. Under frenzy, the DPS of a hammer guy are simply outrageous.
Backbreaker-Frenzy-Crushing-Spunt-Spouch-Sprotch-EEeeeergh.
Two hammer guys on a monk with coms to link their KD can be the bane of any opponent, causing unouthealable damage.

Rey Lentless · Apr 02, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Under frenzy, the DPS of a hammer guy are simply outrageous.

The DPS isn't better, read the thread.

Quote:

As has been said, plenty of top guilds use hammer warriors. instead of complaining about them, maybe get into observer mode and actually watch how they are supposed to be used.

Knockdowns are ok right now and enough reason to use hammers. In a month, they won't have the same value. Instead of giving your opinion based on what top guilds uses, and inferring balance by 'so and so uses X, so and so is good.. so X is good', why don't you read the thread.

Quote:

You have to consider the sheer physical presence of a hammer warrior and his potential for causing total disruption and chaos - THIS is pressure. No other character in the game can cause this sort of pressure as effectively as a hammer warrior, barring perhaps a really skilled domination mesmer, but a domination mesmer cant hurt anyone inbetween skill usage, whereas a hammer warrior in between his disruption is also hurting people big style.

Mesmers can do a hell of a lot more than 1 hammer warrior. Just the fact you think that makes me question anything else you have to say. This pressure won't be anywhere near as reliable (not that it's real reliable now anyway) as it is now. Hammers are not and certainly will not be the most disruptive force in the game, and their damage should be higher.

glountz · Apr 02, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

The DPS isn't better, read the thread.

I read the thread. You are wrong.
If you deny it in the face of reality, with empirical stats Ensign and Top Guild members gave from months of high end GvG practice, it can't be helped.
Just try to smash a KDed guy under frenzy.
You will do more damage than your Eviscerate axe (D wound included with crusing blow).
Please test it yourself.